I tweeted lionhead on twitter about Black & White 3.

Thats the annoying thing which is probaly true i bet EA have the rights and if not lionhead probaly locked all there good black and white coders in a box and "lost" the key. a simular game from anouther company with a few of the people who worked on B&W 1 is probaly are only hope at geting a good game simular
 
I could get into a remake of Black & White 1 with updated graphics. I'd say it's better to hope for that than for a true Black & White 3, anyway.

Though neither are really likely.
 
BanjaminF said:
Thats the annoying thing which is probaly true i bet EA have the rights and if not lionhead probaly locked all there good black and white coders in a box and "lost" the key. a simular game from anouther company with a few of the people who worked on B&W 1 is probaly are only hope at geting a good game simular
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The sad fact is that most of the team who worked on B&W have probably gone their separate ways now.  It would have to be a new team making the game with perhaps one or two old faces.  That said, it's perhaps not such a bad idea to have new blood making the game. 

The one true weakness of the B&W series was that it didn't have much of an engaging story.  To me, a truly brilliant game is the perfect balance of gameplay and story, so a new team could perhaps tackle that problem from a different angle that the original team couldn't think of.

AppleApe said:
~{Open Source Black and White 3 }~

That is what we need.  :yes :woot :yes
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Not a bad idea :D .
 
fenton_pat said:
The one true weakness of the B&W series was that it didn't have much of an engaging story.  To me, a truly brilliant game is the perfect balance of gameplay and story, so a new team could perhaps tackle that problem from a different angle that the original team couldn't think of.
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Highly agreed.
I am sure all of us could go nuts with story line ideas,
(I would prefer one that did not have to do with the god of scrambled eggs, for a story line :p ). 
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I really liked the feel of BOTG, it was dark, somewhat oppressive, and undead, at first.
To truly be good, I think, the whole thing would pretty much have to be a mix of land 2 from B&W 1, and (for me anyway) land 2 of BOTG, except they would have to be variants.  :yourock:
I like the idea of the objective being to destroy an old evil god that once ruled all of eden, and he is back now, you meet a few allies along the way (in the games 50 lands, might I mention :angry), beat up the other bad guy gods that get in your way, find six or seven creeds, three of which have to be the "ultimate creeds", take your highly detailed bear/wolf/horse/zebra/lion/tiger/ape/turtle creature to land 50, and kick the big bad guys butt.  And, have a waiting expansion pack called RTCI (return to creature isle).
That would rock so much you would have to :cmad to get your life back.
 
I like those ideas.

The one bit I'd disagree with though is that the lands would be slightly different flavours of Land 2 from B&W1/BOTG.

While they're good fun, I have to say I admired the idea Lionhead had of trying to make the experience on each land different, e.g. restoring a corrupted land, working with an ally, getting your creature back, etc.  They weren't all complete successes, but the principle was a good one I believe.
 
By variants I was trying to say all good/really fun lands.  :p

I think another attempt at land 3 of B&W 1 would be a good idea, but perhaps the land could more involve chucking fire balls at ogres than throwing around a guy that can't die with a whiny voice.
Oh, and that's the other thing, I would like to see ogres and gremlins with clubs smashing things, still being dumb, just more aggressive than their B&W 1 predecessors.
And more miracles, especially one called super mega ultra blast miracle extreme, where you could set all the places where the columns would hit while in a slow down time mode.
I, also, think that the belief system should come back whilst keeping the impressiveness system and the um, other take over thing (I forget it's exact name).
And, the take over thing should be harder, or at least more complicated, perhaps a "fear" system which would involve killing peeps, imprisoning them, and holding ransom until the given village would submit to you, as apposed to having your army stand around their village center and wave their swords and shields grunting.
Using fear = evil, using impressiveness = good, using belief = neither/neutral.

Man, I can go nuts with ideas.....  :cool:
 
And here is where we touch on another problem in the B&W series.

It was trying to be all things for all people.  And in doing that, it tried to fit in so many different mechanisms that a lot of them (with the exception of city building) seemed under-developed.

At least in B&W1, the belief system was surprisingly nuanced as it was totally up to you how you got villagers to believe in you e.g. heal them/harm them, feed them/eat them and so on :D .  It got close to your imagination being your only limit (although I do like your idea of having semi-control of where multiple mega blast beams would hit via slowed down time as a new feature).

In B&W2, the new systems for getting more believers felt a lot more binary - either impress them with your pretty city or get troops to stand in a circle around their town centre.  That was it in a nutshell :suspect .

If you were going to do a B&W remake, I'd be more in favour of the belief system of B&W1.  Although once you have a town, all the city building options of B&W2 should come into effect - not necessarily to impress other villagers, but just to build your own idea of heaven/hell. 

If you did still want city building to affect belief in other towns, I would suggest that the type of city you build buffs up the power of certain miracles in much the same way that wonders in B&W1 did, e.g. a town focused on farming would buff up resource miracles, a military town would buff up aggressive towns, etc.

As for the military side, I'm not sure I like the level of control we had of armies in B&W - too much like a shallow RTS game.  Again, using the B&W1 system, I think you should raise or lower flags to determine the type and level of military aggressiveness.  You could build something like trading post or embassy for each town and raise/lower various diplomatic flags on that building to indicate your stance toward that town.  This could also used to control trade.

As for actual controlling of armies, I would suggest only your creature should have direct control over your armies.  You can issue orders to your creature, but only he can command armies in the best way he see fit. 

OK, that's enough rambling for now :laugh2.
 
The bit about a raising and lowering flags wasn't something I had thought of.
Trading between villages is also a good idea.
I, also, think that resources should be much more developed than in 1 or even 2.
Because, how does a pig = grain!?
I thought that ore was a good idea, but I think that smelters should not be option that gives a boost to your ore, but a necessity for having ore at all, because are you going to chisel a rock to dust, then build with the dust? :rolleyes
There should be four sections of the village store, lumber, grain/rice perhaps fruit, and meat, because if all you ate was grain, I don't think you would be joining any army.  :p
On a different part, but some how B&W's signature, what about old Demon and Beardy?
I think that the evil conscience looked best in 2, but Goody looked better in 1.
I think Goody should be cross legged, have green eyes instead of blue and git rid of his gut.
Evil looked just right, out of shape, ugly, yet funny.

Still went nuts again. :yourock:   
 
When it comes to visual elements, I'm always lacking there.  I always find it hard to imagine a picture described by someone else until it's actually done or can easily relate to something else.

That said, I haven't seen Demon & Beardy in ages.  Might help to see pics of them from both games.  Haven't got the time myself to do that now.  Anyone else up for doing it?
 
Hmm.  I definitely agree that B&W1 beardy is best.

However, for Demon, I'd put his B&W1 head on his B&W2 body.

I like the slightly more cartoony look and expressions of the B&W1 face, but could do well without the strange pointy man-boobs :shocked (hence the B&W2 body).
 
Another idea that I found interesting about the miracles, was about a "fuel" miracle?
They would cost very little prayer power/mana, because they themselves would not do much.

"I watched as my men were soaked in a strange smelling liquid that smelled of oil. Thinking that it was nothing more than a scare tactic we pursued...  Later on in the heat of battle we learned our lesson.  The enemy god struck a man down with a lightning bolt.  He died immediately.  When I heard the screams of the men two seconds later, I knew what had happened...  He had torched us with tactics!!!!"

Get it?  :devil
 
Heh.  To be honest though, I think that might over-complicate things. 

And in any case, when have you ever heard of a truly powerful god dousing the enemies in a combustible fuel before dropping a great big fireball on the asses :angry  :D ?

One of the things I liked about B&W was that the amount of direct influence you had over people was marginal compared to other games.  Sure you could pick people up and throw them around and all but when it came to doing stuff, you did it in a very godly manner.  What god needs fuel when he/she has got a honking great big fireball/bolt of lightening ready to let rip :p ?

My guiding principle on all this is that the amount of direct influence on your people should be somewhat limited.  Hence my suggestion about raising flags to control your people's aggressiveness toward other towns and only allowing your creature to directly control your armies (not sure how well that second one would work out though).
 
fenton_pat said:
To be honest though, I think that might over-complicate things. 

And in any case, when have you ever heard of a truly powerful god dousing the enemies in a combustible fuel

What god needs fuel when he/she has got a honking great big fireball/bolt of lightening ready to let rip ?
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I have to say I like complicated things, as long as they are fun.  :suspect :blues: :suspect
My idea about the fuel was that say you had only 100 mana, one fire ball cost you 80 mana, but, one fire ball would only kill a small part of an enemy army.  One fuel costs ten mana and has a splash like a water miracle, cast two of those and one fire ball, you can have a whole army nabbed.  Basically a cost saver.  :devil

One thing I was disappointed about in B&W 2 was they took away our temples!  :angry
In B&W 1 I really, really liked how temples looked when destroyed, I just think they should have left a crater where they once stood.
The interior of the temple was awesome, I liked the way the rooms looked.
I would like to see another future room where the message looked cooler (like liquid stone) and could say things like "you are on the verge of victory" or "your arrogance shall become your achilles heel".

A library that would not give stupid tips like "the arrow keys can move you also" but give you myths about Eden.
And a creature cave that would give you details about your creature, a water fall to watch, and something else...

And a new one: The Collection Room.  Where you could keep that rock that you thought had a face, or freeze a cow in stone (or a person), or keep a little garden of mutant trees. :p

And you should also be able to, at the beginning of the game choose how your temple, hand, and symbol look, along with your name and gender.

Wrote a lot, again. :shocked

 
AppleApe said:
I have to say I like complicated things, as long as they are fun.   
My idea about the fuel was that say you had only 100 mana, one fire ball cost you 80 mana, but, one fire ball would only kill a small part of an enemy army.  One fuel costs ten mana and has a splash like a water miracle, cast two of those and one fire ball, you can have a whole army nabbed.  Basically a cost saver. 
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True, but what I really like is when a game is complex but you barely notice - subtle complexity if you will.  Playing to another of B&W1's strengths (discovering your own way of doing things), I could see a few slightly more godly alternatives that just require some lateral thinking within the game.
  • Option 1:Use the Elements: Cast water/rain over the army then use lightening.  Electricity would conduct more freely throughout the army :shocked  :D .
  • Option 2:Cause an avalanche by setting some rocks off from a hill.  Alternatively, light a big bundle of rocks with your fireball and start doing your best flaming catapult impression.

In any case, this just goes to show one of the things that B&W should be - deceptively simple, but allowing for great variation within the environment limited only by the player's creativity/malevolence :laugh2 .

AppleApe said:
One thing I was disappointed about in B&W 2 was they took away our temples!  :angry
In B&W 1 I really, really liked how temples looked when destroyed, I just think they should have left a crater where they once stood.
The interior of the temple was awesome, I liked the way the rooms looked.
I would like to see another future room where the message looked cooler (like liquid stone) and could say things like "you are on the verge of victory" or "your arrogance shall become your achilles heel".

A library that would not give stupid tips like "the arrow keys can move you also" but give you myths about Eden.
And a creature cave that would give you details about your creature, a water fall to watch, and something else...

And a new one: The Collection Room.  Where you could keep that rock that you thought had a face, or freeze a cow in stone (or a person), or keep a little garden of mutant trees. :p

And you should also be able to, at the beginning of the game choose how your temple, hand, and symbol look, along with your name and gender.

Wrote a lot, again. :shocked
Click to expand...

Totally agree that the temple has to come back.  Although I can understand the reason for removing it (twould've been a great big "Kill the god" bullseye on your back).  Never the less, it could come back in another fashion.  It doesn't need to be your achilles heal on the land.  You could have a slightly more modest building on every land you visit that opens to a "pocket universe" where your temple and creature cave are housed.  That would help explain why such a large structure could be housed without taking up half the land!

So if that building is destroied, you could suffer the natural penalty of being unable to manage your land(s) as effectively until you rebuild your temple entrance.

I recall early on in B&W2's development, they talked about staying linked to your previous lands via trade and the like.  Modifying this idea a little, you could remain linked to your lands via your temple/portal. This also allows for the import of not just resources, but also some mana/miracles from previous lands (with obviously some limits), making the preservation of the temple building still an important feature.

Allowing the import of godly power from previous lands also helps give a more natural flavour to levelling up as your power and abilities will naturally grow as you take over more lands.  However, you can still be weakened to newborn god level if your temple is damaged/destroied and you have to rebuild it.

As for choosing your temple/hand look.  I'm not so sure as I like how they were naturally affected by alignment.  As a compromise though, I think you should be able to augment them somewhat, but you shouldn't (for example) be able to have an angelic looking temple/hand and still be an Evil sod to your followers.

Damn!  Now I've written a whole bundle :shocked !
 
I do like the "deceptively simple" idea, water making electricity conduct better, it's basic in real life, but, in a game, awesome!
Speaking of water, I liked how water looked in B&W 2 better, but, did not like the lack of interactivity.
Fish should come back, with different types, including sharks that would eat followers going for a swim. :p
I think that there should be a "water world", where one could go under the water to hunt for more exotic fish.
And much like B&W1's red mushrooms, if you brought back poisonous fish for people to eat, people would start to die.
On the vortex thing, I thought B&W 2 vortexes looked very pooish.  :rolleyes
I like the purple-orange mix, and not being able to see through it. :yes
I think at the end of the game, one should be able to build a "vortex wonder" for themselves that would allow them to travel to all the other 50 lands again.
And, I think, instead of a creature just disappearing, and a person having their breath sucked out, a beam should come down, turn them into little pieces, and send them down. 



 
On fish, I would make one addendment to your idea. I'd like/nay DEMAND the ability to grab a shark and plonk it in the middle of a village and watch the chaos ensue :angry  :D !

As for the vortexes, I can't remember what they looked like in B&W2.  That said, I'd still make a case for using the temple idea I mentioned above to gain access to your previous lands.  Otherwise, it you have one vortex on your land that you have to use to access all the others, you have to bring up a menu of sorts to choose which land, etc.  The temple keeps that working in the game world rather than some crummy menu like in B&W2.
 
fenton_pat said:
On fish, I would make one addendment to your idea. I'd like/nay DEMAND the ability to grab a shark and plonk it in the middle of a village and watch the chaos ensue!

As for the vortexes, I can't remember what they looked like in B&W2.  
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Sharks thrashing in the middle of a village!?
Get your heals ready, for the old peeps will be having a lot of heart attacks!
They, also, need to make a comic for B&W, where the god is kind of crazy!   :yourock: :angel :devil :p :rolleyes

I can get a picture of a B&W 2 vortex.  :yes
 
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